This in depth writing you're doing is really difficult and is a immense service to skaters in this country at least. Skatepark design is in somewhat of an arrested development here. In this era of landscape design being entirely uninterested in the plaza styles where skateboarding incidentally thrived (re: Love and Muni getting greened up), its really important that we as skaters take stock in very fine detail of what actually makes a great space for skateboarding. Its about park scaled compositions that function well and are made up of very minute and interrelated details. Cogently switching between those scales is difficult in conversation and in writing. I think you're doing a great job of breaking it all up. Its an immense challenge.
You're absolutely right that the cultural component has evolved since Skater's Island and skatepark design in many ways has not. Having grown up skating almost exclusively street and then working for Breaking Ground Skateparks, a design/build/ skate ethos grown out of Burnside, I have learned a lot in straddling those two sects within skating (there's pages I could write about the coping debates but I will hold off for future posts).
That 'older ethic' that lead to conflict over bike pegs is central to the arrested development of current skatepark design but that conflict is still grounded in a material disfunction. For the most part I think the effects of urethane and aluminum and plywood on the cityscape is unsightly but ultimately can be defined as "use" rather than damage. Whereas steel pegs cause a lot more of cracking, chipping and breaking, which skaters are often blamed for as BMX bikes are never a municipally banned activity. I have experienced it in the disappointment of losing ledge spots to damage but also the frustration in fielding complaints from city officials whom I've been lobbying for better skateparks. I think that this distinction remains important for design/ build conversations despite progress in cultural overlap.
But yeah all that to say:
Yes! I too would love to experience more granite and concrete ledge grinds in skateparks. This page rules. Looking forward to what you write next
Agree with all the observations and conclusions around ideal ledge dimensions (maybe the runup dimensions are a bit excessive especially for the spatially constrained northeast?).
Just want to lend additional context to the tragically exclusive use of steel in skatepark ledges:
bike pegs.
While a variety of concrete and stone products can withstand years of aluminum truck contact, they quickly chip and degrade when met with the heavier and harder force of steel bmx pegs. Skateparks have long been a site of conflict over material experiences and uses. As far back as 20 years ago at the late Skater's Island, the snake run section featured prominent signage; "NO PEGS ON POOL COPING".
Hi Will, I know the footprint dimensions may seem excessive when you just look at the numbers. But if you consider the roughly 90 to 100 foot foot length of basketball courts like Chauncy and reggaetone you’re only adding an additional 70 to 80 feet to accommodate that run up. At Reggaeton there’s another two half courts, four steps up from the lower court. There’s also plenty of basketball courts that are side by side in nyc or a b ball court and handball court side by side or back to back. NYC is probably the most spatially constrained place in the northeast but there are a lot of examples of public recreational facilities that would accommodate the proper amount of run up space for ledge skating. Also I feel that, if we as skaters don’t design places that are properly laid out for the act of skateboarding than only by chance do we ever get perfect spots.
As far as the bmx peg dilemma goes I feel like the situation has changed in the past 20 years. I definitely don’t know for certain all the minor details and ins and outs of why but my speculation is that waxing and preserving ledges has come a long way for skaters and bmx’ers. I know bmxers ride at Chauncy and probably almost every other ledge spot that skaters skate. There’s a a lot of crossover between the two worlds. I watch bmx videos sometimes because they ride amazing spots and I’ve talked to bmx riders who watch skate videos to find spots as well. But Chauncey isn’t all chipped up like you would expect. I suspect it’s because the concrete mix used for the ledges is probably relatively hard. Plus Chauncy was slightly beveled even when it was brand new and skaters and maybe even bmxers keep Chauncey heavily waxed.
I would guess that at skaters island the skaters of the time probably frowned on waxing the pool coping almost as much as they did on bmxers grinding the pool coping. I know skaters that still cling to the old, no wax just skate faster mantra, but for the most part that old 90s skate ethic seems to be fading out.
Before a granite or polished/ painted concrete ledge would ever be skated in a skatepark setting it would be smoothed down, have a slight bevel and be waxed and or clear coated prior to any skate truck or bmx peg ever making contact. And the way skaters are today that ledge would remain waxed.
But historically speaking I think you’re absolutely right about the bmx peg dilemma being the main reason why steel became the exclusive material used to cap ledges.
I think a lot of the design features in skate parks can be attributed to similar outdated ideas and dilemmas. Eventually I plan to cover all of them. Or as many as I can think of. This ledge dimension article was just already getting so long that I felt I had to wrap it up.
Just like I should wrap up this long response. I do plan on eventually writing an entire materials article. And subsequent articles will also go into more detail about layout and even ideas of how to work with city’s and towns to more creatively use spaces to properly accommodate different types of skating.
Thank you for the thoughtful comment Will. I find it really hard to talk in person about skatepark design because the way skateparks are designed bothers me so much that I tend to become frustrated and get too negative in the heat of the moment to have a meaningful discussion where all people involved in the conversation come away with a better understanding of the the skate park design conundrum instead of just disagreeing and ending up even more frustrated.
Sorry for rambling, but I guess what I really want to say is I hope my response didn’t come across in a negative way because my goal was to respond in a positive way that furthers our way of thinking about skatepark design instead of of just digressing into an argument. The way you worded your comment achieved that and I hope I was able to reciprocate.
and Yes you are right about the function of run up dimensions being on a basketball court sized scale. I meant more to say that they may not be practical. But these kinds of compromises are ones that should be decided on a case by case basis by the community served through an equitable and extensive public design process. Hoping you've got a piece coming on the disfunction of public input processes for skatepark design as well
Very knowledgeable.
Hi Dave,
This in depth writing you're doing is really difficult and is a immense service to skaters in this country at least. Skatepark design is in somewhat of an arrested development here. In this era of landscape design being entirely uninterested in the plaza styles where skateboarding incidentally thrived (re: Love and Muni getting greened up), its really important that we as skaters take stock in very fine detail of what actually makes a great space for skateboarding. Its about park scaled compositions that function well and are made up of very minute and interrelated details. Cogently switching between those scales is difficult in conversation and in writing. I think you're doing a great job of breaking it all up. Its an immense challenge.
You're absolutely right that the cultural component has evolved since Skater's Island and skatepark design in many ways has not. Having grown up skating almost exclusively street and then working for Breaking Ground Skateparks, a design/build/ skate ethos grown out of Burnside, I have learned a lot in straddling those two sects within skating (there's pages I could write about the coping debates but I will hold off for future posts).
That 'older ethic' that lead to conflict over bike pegs is central to the arrested development of current skatepark design but that conflict is still grounded in a material disfunction. For the most part I think the effects of urethane and aluminum and plywood on the cityscape is unsightly but ultimately can be defined as "use" rather than damage. Whereas steel pegs cause a lot more of cracking, chipping and breaking, which skaters are often blamed for as BMX bikes are never a municipally banned activity. I have experienced it in the disappointment of losing ledge spots to damage but also the frustration in fielding complaints from city officials whom I've been lobbying for better skateparks. I think that this distinction remains important for design/ build conversations despite progress in cultural overlap.
But yeah all that to say:
Yes! I too would love to experience more granite and concrete ledge grinds in skateparks. This page rules. Looking forward to what you write next
Agree with all the observations and conclusions around ideal ledge dimensions (maybe the runup dimensions are a bit excessive especially for the spatially constrained northeast?).
Just want to lend additional context to the tragically exclusive use of steel in skatepark ledges:
bike pegs.
While a variety of concrete and stone products can withstand years of aluminum truck contact, they quickly chip and degrade when met with the heavier and harder force of steel bmx pegs. Skateparks have long been a site of conflict over material experiences and uses. As far back as 20 years ago at the late Skater's Island, the snake run section featured prominent signage; "NO PEGS ON POOL COPING".
Where we're at with ledges is no different.
Hi Will, I know the footprint dimensions may seem excessive when you just look at the numbers. But if you consider the roughly 90 to 100 foot foot length of basketball courts like Chauncy and reggaetone you’re only adding an additional 70 to 80 feet to accommodate that run up. At Reggaeton there’s another two half courts, four steps up from the lower court. There’s also plenty of basketball courts that are side by side in nyc or a b ball court and handball court side by side or back to back. NYC is probably the most spatially constrained place in the northeast but there are a lot of examples of public recreational facilities that would accommodate the proper amount of run up space for ledge skating. Also I feel that, if we as skaters don’t design places that are properly laid out for the act of skateboarding than only by chance do we ever get perfect spots.
As far as the bmx peg dilemma goes I feel like the situation has changed in the past 20 years. I definitely don’t know for certain all the minor details and ins and outs of why but my speculation is that waxing and preserving ledges has come a long way for skaters and bmx’ers. I know bmxers ride at Chauncy and probably almost every other ledge spot that skaters skate. There’s a a lot of crossover between the two worlds. I watch bmx videos sometimes because they ride amazing spots and I’ve talked to bmx riders who watch skate videos to find spots as well. But Chauncey isn’t all chipped up like you would expect. I suspect it’s because the concrete mix used for the ledges is probably relatively hard. Plus Chauncy was slightly beveled even when it was brand new and skaters and maybe even bmxers keep Chauncey heavily waxed.
I would guess that at skaters island the skaters of the time probably frowned on waxing the pool coping almost as much as they did on bmxers grinding the pool coping. I know skaters that still cling to the old, no wax just skate faster mantra, but for the most part that old 90s skate ethic seems to be fading out.
Before a granite or polished/ painted concrete ledge would ever be skated in a skatepark setting it would be smoothed down, have a slight bevel and be waxed and or clear coated prior to any skate truck or bmx peg ever making contact. And the way skaters are today that ledge would remain waxed.
But historically speaking I think you’re absolutely right about the bmx peg dilemma being the main reason why steel became the exclusive material used to cap ledges.
I think a lot of the design features in skate parks can be attributed to similar outdated ideas and dilemmas. Eventually I plan to cover all of them. Or as many as I can think of. This ledge dimension article was just already getting so long that I felt I had to wrap it up.
Just like I should wrap up this long response. I do plan on eventually writing an entire materials article. And subsequent articles will also go into more detail about layout and even ideas of how to work with city’s and towns to more creatively use spaces to properly accommodate different types of skating.
Thank you for the thoughtful comment Will. I find it really hard to talk in person about skatepark design because the way skateparks are designed bothers me so much that I tend to become frustrated and get too negative in the heat of the moment to have a meaningful discussion where all people involved in the conversation come away with a better understanding of the the skate park design conundrum instead of just disagreeing and ending up even more frustrated.
Sorry for rambling, but I guess what I really want to say is I hope my response didn’t come across in a negative way because my goal was to respond in a positive way that furthers our way of thinking about skatepark design instead of of just digressing into an argument. The way you worded your comment achieved that and I hope I was able to reciprocate.
and Yes you are right about the function of run up dimensions being on a basketball court sized scale. I meant more to say that they may not be practical. But these kinds of compromises are ones that should be decided on a case by case basis by the community served through an equitable and extensive public design process. Hoping you've got a piece coming on the disfunction of public input processes for skatepark design as well